Vehicle Types

Discuss your favourite cars, racing or non-racing

Which of the following:

Tuner
34
44%
Muscle
12
15%
Exotic
24
31%
SUV/Truck
2
3%
Bikes
6
8%
 
Total votes: 78

- Rx7 -
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by - Rx7 - »

Tuner > #1 can't deny.
Muscle > As long as you don't intend to turn any corners in your life.
Exotics > To expensive.
SUV/Truck > DON'T MAKE ME LOL. LOL.
Bikes > Mehhh 4 wheels are better than 2.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by Koenigsegg_Rox »

>why is tuner #1?
>Muscles can actually turn a corner, in fact the Corvette Z06 handles with almost supercar quality.
>Exotics, while more expensive, are actually very much capable of taking down tuners, take for an example the new Brabus SL, with 544kW of power and 1320Nm of torque.
>Do agree with SUVs though
>But 4 wheels are better than two? Not necessarily my friend...
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by steelsnake00 »

Koenigsegg_Rox wrote:>why is tuner #1?
>Muscles can actually turn a corner, in fact the Corvette Z06 handles with almost supercar quality.
>Exotics, while more expensive, are actually very much capable of taking down tuners, take for an example the new Brabus SL, with 544kW of power and 1320Nm of torque.
>Do agree with SUVs though
>But 4 wheels are better than two? Not necessarily my friend...
To add to this

Tuner> Only as good as the person who does the modifying. Most people are idiots so most cars are apalling heaps of junk.
Muscle> Just because the Z06 has a muscle car engine doesn't make it a muscle car. I wouldn't class it as one, more of a performance car. Anyway, it's not THAT fast, only margainally faster around the 'Ring, for example, than a 4 year old BMW M3.
Exotics> All things to all men. No-one can honestly say that if they had the money, they wouldn't own one.
Bikes> Quicker than cars 99.9% of the time.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by Koenigsegg_Rox »

And also much better bang for your buck on bikes. A 2008 GSXR1000 costs no more than (in AU at least) 20 grand, and it goes faster than, say, a 350,000 dollar Gallardo. Safety is really the only point that 4 wheels is better than 2.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by RedCarDriver »

steelsnake00 wrote: Tuner> Only as good as the person who does the modifying. Most people are idiots so most cars are apalling heaps of junk.
That I must disagree with. If you don't slap on more than a cr@ppy exhaust then yes; otherwise you get a much more affordable alternative to an exotic. But I do agree with:
steelsnake00 wrote:Exotics> No-one can honestly say that if they had the money, they wouldn't own one.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by speed_man »

Koenigsegg_Rox wrote:And also much better bang for your buck on bikes. A 2008 GSXR1000 costs no more than (in AU at least) 20 grand, and it goes faster than, say, a 350,000 dollar Gallardo. Safety is really the only point that 4 wheels is better than 2.

A GSXR1000 costs $20,000 in Austarlia?? you can get one over here in the U.S. for about 13 grand..!
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by Koenigsegg_Rox »

AU dollars that is.... which is about right for the price in the US.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by boganbusman »

No it isn't. When was the last time you bought something from the US? AUD and USD are almost the same.

This is why I buy most of my car parts from America because it works out so much cheaper then buying locally, even with shipping charges on top.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by Koenigsegg_Rox »

I know, 20 grand is a rough estimate :roll:
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by steelsnake00 »

RedCarDriver wrote:That I must disagree with. If you don't slap on more than a cr@ppy exhaust then yes; otherwise you get a much more affordable alternative to an exotic.
I'm sorry, that's utter rubbish. It's easy to modify a car to make it quick in a straight line, once, but most people neglect suspention and braking, anti-roll bars, proper cooling systems, and most importantly to build reliable engines.

I spent roughly the same ammount buying and modifying my S2 as I spent buying and re-fitting the engine to my 964 Turbo 3.6. And although the S2 had a decent slab more power, it was less composed, less reliable and at times less managable than a notoriously hard to drive, Rear engine/Rear drive 380bhp performance car.

Anyone who says that a modified car will be faster without loosing the composure or sacrificing comfort or reliability, whilst still remaining cheaper than a supercar, is for the most part wrong. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but if Impreza WRX STI's were built to handle 800bhp reliably without loss of everyday drivability or usability then Subaru would have built one
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by RedCarDriver »

steelsnake00 wrote:...but most people neglect suspention and braking, anti-roll bars, proper cooling systems, and most importantly to build reliable engines.
I see your entire line of thinking here seems to revolve around tuners in the US. In many other places, in Japan especially, they do tune EVERYTHING - the cars are made for cornering as well as speed. For example, look at the Mine's Time Attack R34. Sometimes, they do just tune for speed - but it really depends on what they're going for. Heck, for some drift cars they basically only add rims and tires, and only slightly modify everything else - because they don't need anything else.

The one thing to remember about tuners is that they're purpose-built for whatever they're going to use it for. For most people in the U.S., engine comes first because they don't "need" anything else that badly and they're on a tight budget (and heck, stock suspensions usually aren't that bad anyway, except in the case of "ricers" and such, where you're talking about Honda Civics). For drag-oriented cars, that's okay; for all-around performers, they usually start working on other things once they're satisfied with the engine. That's another important aspect of tuners: they're works in progress for a large part of the time their owner has the car, especially when tuned by an individual rather than a large company.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by steelsnake00 »

RedCarDriver wrote:I see your entire line of thinking here seems to revolve around tuners in the US.
Not really, more from personal experience in the UK and forum experience from various ones around the world. I am a Brit, remember.
RedCarDriver wrote:In many other places, in Japan especially, they do tune EVERYTHING - the cars are made for cornering as well as speed. For example, look at the Mine's Time Attack R34. Sometimes, they do just tune for speed - but it really depends on what they're going for. Heck, for some drift cars they basically only add rims and tires, and only slightly modify everything else - because they don't need anything else.
Yes but drifting can really be done in anything RWD with an LSD or welded diff. I know people who've drifted competatively in £2000 BMW's and Merc 190's despite their lack of power or other modifications. I understand that proper companies tend to do things properly, but that's because any vehicle bearing their name is a representation of the quality of the vehicle.

What I'm mainly saying is that although it's perfectly possible to build a fast time attack or sprint car for less than the cost of a supercar, it's silly to even pretend that these cars aren't compromised. There is a reason why prestigious and supercars cost hundreds of thousands of pounds, and that's because tens of millions have been spent designing them to be both as powerful, reliable AND as usuable on a daily basis. Take this as an example: around a track my S2 was considerably quicker than both my M3 CSL and my later 911 Turbo, but driving the S2 for 20k miles a year would have resulted in a spine made from jelly, no hearing and a very sore behind.

Modified cars are a compromised design- either performance or reliable comfort. Supercars cost so much more because they do both.
RedCarDriver wrote:The one thing to remember about tuners is that they're purpose-built for whatever they're going to use it for. For most people in the U.S., engine comes first because they don't "need" anything else that badly and they're on a tight budget (and heck, stock suspensions usually aren't that bad anyway, except in the case of "ricers" and such, where you're talking about Honda Civics).
Exactly. Supercars aren't purpose built to be the fastest, they're built to be the fastest that's comfortable and usable on a daily basis. You try driving a track orientated modified car for a year, then stepping into a supercar- it will suddently be not only immensely fast but the most comfortable and reliable thing in the world. I know full well because I've done it- until I started bolting coilovers and lumpy cams onto the M3 CSL it seemed so much more comfortable than the Audi, even though it's a stripped out race car for the road.
RedCarDriver wrote:For drag-oriented cars, that's okay; for all-around performers, they usually start working on other things once they're satisfied with the engine. That's another important aspect of tuners: they're works in progress for a large part of the time their owner has the car, especially when tuned by an individual rather than a large company.
Again, not true. A decent suspention setup is as important on a high performance drag car than it is on a time attack, track or sprint car. Okay, you might not need remote resevoir dampers or the like (which to the best of my knowledge are banned on most track and time attack classes anyway) but you will need upgraded axels, modified gearboxes and differentials, steering racks and adjustable suspention to make the most of the new power.

Only a fool upgrades their engine before they modify their drivetrain, suspention and brakes. On 99% of cars these are the most likely components to fail in track use anyway so should be the first things to be modified.
#1 rule of successful modifying- only increase the power of a car when ALL other components are upgrades enough.
#2 rule of successful modifying- drivetrain, suspention and particularly brakes should be of a specification to handle the engine's power plus ~25%- just in case you start pushing the limits.

Fine-tuning a car is a slow, steady process, but it's also absurdly expensive. Take something like an R34 GTT- five thousand pounds spent on the engine will give you a big BHP number, but to make that fully usable I'd take a guess that you'd need to spent 2-5 times that total. 550bhp will need big brakes- Around £2k for a good set. Decent coilovers and anti-roll bars will be around £1500 depending on the quality of the gear you use- I'd never settle for anything less than KW Varient 2 fully adjustable gear which is round about £1500 for a set. Wider wheels and and other adjustable suspention parts like sway bars or camber plates? Anything from £1000-£5000. Decent TorSen differential? £800. Seam-welded chassis and/or rollcage? £1000-£3000. None of that includes fitting, mind. Suddenly your £5k, big power skyline looks a hell of a lot more expensive.

With the S2, I put far too much focus on power without fully upgrading the chassis and I paid the price with the decrease in usability. With the M3 I did the exact opposite? 385 crank BHP was only 25 more than it left the factory with (curtosy of bigger injectors, lumpy cams, a Hartge designed inlet manifold and freer flowing exhausts) but I spent (no joke) about £7k on the rest of the car- KW Varient 2's with Bilsen shocks, Ground Control camber plates, AC Schnitzer anti-roll bars, AP Racing 4-pot calipers on 350mm vented disks all round, Limited Slip M-differential (though that was a factory option). Suddenly I've spent £45k on the car, including buying it, and for that price I could have bought a 996 911 Turbo, which would have had 430bhp, big brakes, better aerodynamics and I would have sold for round about the same.

If you want to go supercar killing you might as well spend £6k on a bike and be done with it- building modified cars that are that focused and that enjoyable to drive is something that takes lots of knowledge, research, patience and most of all a budged of about twice what you predict it will be. Any monkey can build a tube-chassis, 600kg supercar killer, the same way any monkey can get big BHP out of an engine without really trying. Making them usable on an everyday basis, reliable and anywhere near as enjoyable to drive as a supercar takes masses of money, lots of time and effort and unless you're really a modified car nutter and can put up with years of head scratching, confusion and downright annoyance, you might as well buy something standard.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by speed_man »

WOW!! long post^^ :shock: :lol:
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by TheStig »

WOW!! useless post ^^ :shock: :lol:
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by speed_man »

WOW!! sorry^^ :shock: :lol:
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by RedCarDriver »

Well, in that case, you do have a very valid point, but it's not like you CAN'T work on making the ride more comfortable. It's just that when you do, you've spent enough money that you practically could have bought the exotic instead for the same price :lol:
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by xHaZxMaTx »

Which is exactly what he's been trying to tell you. :roll:
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by RedCarDriver »

Yeah, but the thing is that you've at least put your own effort into making it at that point so it's worth more for that alone. Plus, I'm not the sort of guy who cares about how comfortable the ride is - as long as I don't get back problems from the seats or something, I'm fine :mrgreen:
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by steelsnake00 »

RedCarDriver wrote:Yeah, but the thing is that you've at least put your own effort into making it at that point so it's worth more for that alone. Plus, I'm not the sort of guy who cares about how comfortable the ride is - as long as I don't get back problems from the seats or something, I'm fine :mrgreen:
But 99% of modifiers don't have the first clue about actually modifying.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by RedCarDriver »

steelsnake00 wrote:99%
That's a bit of an exaggeration - I doubt many people would open up their car and mess with it unless they knew what they're doing.

Again, I think you're using the assumption that "tuner" implies "most of the time, owner who doesn't know anything", which wasn't what the topic is about in the first place - it's about the car itself rather than the owner.

Oh well, to each man his own. Exotics are nice because they're prebuilt and the owner doesn't have to mess with it as the factory did everything for him; tuners are nice because you can make everything how you want it with the only limiting factors being money and time.

Plus, either way, if the guy didn't have any idea what he was doing, he could take it to a shop where they DO know what they're doing. :D
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by steelsnake00 »

RedCarDriver wrote:[Again, I think you're using the assumption that "tuner" implies "most of the time, owner who doesn't know anything", which wasn't what the topic is about in the first place - it's about the car itself rather than the owner.
I'm not using the word "Tuner" for exactly this reason. Tuner implies 2F2F wannabe who wants to sounds like they're in "the game". Modifier encompasses people and companies who do bodywork, engine work, suspention, brakes, drivetrains, convertions, audio, extreme modification, show cars...

...and especially with some of these (bodywork, audio, convertions) the quality of work tends to be quite patchy. I've seen some properly dangerous conversions in my time- a rear, prelude engined Civic with uninsulated fuel lines, poorly fitted nitrous and fibreglass arches being used as a track car springs to mind.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by baumaxx1 »

Lol... how about a drag car with a battery, not even in a safety casing, next to a fuel tank for weight distribution. Imitation seats are a shocker too... can break easy, and then there's the good ol' seatbelt at the wrong angle that can snap a seat in half, faux roll cages. A simple mod too, is a bit dodge... pod air filters without heat shielding... yeah! hot air intake! woo!Defeating the purpose!
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by steelsnake00 »

baumaxx1 wrote: A simple mod too...pod air filters
ALWAYS a problem unless you are going to mount them in the wing of the car. Cold air feeds do sod all if the filter is sitting right in the middle of a hot engine bay. It's like spraying a water pistol at a forest fire.

Seatbelts are always a funny one. The number of people who use incorrect mountings which in event of a crash would just be ripped from the floor beggars belief.
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by baumaxx1 »

Yeah. In the car mag I read, they actually had a DIY to show you how to make airboxes for pod filters for like $20... so it's legal, and you can position it so you get a good cold air feed. And it's cheap!
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Re: Vehicle Types

Post by steelsnake00 »

baumaxx1 wrote:Yeah. In the car mag I read, they actually had a DIY to show you how to make airboxes for pod filters for like $20... so it's legal, and you can position it so you get a good cold air feed. And it's cheap!
In all fairness, unless you're running a turbo the size of a small house you might as well use the original airbox.
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