NFS Shift user reviews

2009 Need for Speed SHIFT
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Kaerar
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Kaerar »

AERO_HDT wrote:And for you Kaerer, who claim to race Elises in real life (and a few other cars non-professionally? Like a Fiat Punto at the traffic lights perhaps? :roll: ). You state that NO game on the market comes close, then destroy your credibility with waffling on about underlying geometry with the use of a KEYBOARD! How can you make such sweeping statements, such harsh criticisms when you're a key-presser?! Sorry, please buy yourself a nice G25 and come back to the table with your STIG number plates and perhaps I might listen.... And be sober when you do because I've never seen anyone spell the same word with five letters five different ways....
HAHA, so you did spot the intentional SHIFT spelling errors, you didn't think that I wrote a whole passage with nearly correct grammar and no other spelling mistakes and was drunk...
I have played using a keyboard since the days of TNFS, why should I change because you think I should use a wheel? I can still associate with the cars and feel their reactions using a keyboard which is why I held one of the fastest laps of Atlantica in NFSU when I raced online. Just ask whoever raced as ATLANTICAS if he remembers RSOblivion or RSTrixx ;)

I have used a G25 and I can't stand it. The time delay is crap, the steering is nothing like the real thing and if I were to get a wheel I would only do so if it was actually close to the real thing. So far the only one that has was a simulator that had a seat, pedal and wheel setup that cost about $3000 USD. That is slightly out of my price range. You would understand if you had ever raced properly in your life instead of being too young to drive daddy's Ford Escort...
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Summ »

Not to beat a dead horse, but since you brought it up again..

I never insulted you, mate. I found your claims about Flatout being simmy questionable - in my world Flatout 1 was little more than Mario Kart. Granted, I have never played Flatout 2 and Carnage, so I leave space for my statement to be wrong. It is hard to fathom, but I concede that it is possible and that I may have spoken out of turn there. I do however stand by the statement that it is impossible to evaluate a game's simulative value without a proper racing wheel.

EDIT - just read your post above, which you submitted while I was answering the one before it :P. Input delay is game- and computer-dependant. Run any Simbin game on a decent computer and there will be close to no input lag whatsoever. In my book the amount of lag defines in no small part the overall quality of the experience the game delivers and thus the quality of the game itself. Any noticeable input lag is unacceptable and I think it should be the very first thing any developer should get right.

The quality of the steering via wheel is likewise game-dependent, as the difference is the force feedback that the individual game developers choose to implement. Personally, I would like to forward the argument that those can be day and night as well, but I have seen/felt some pretty damn good force feedback profiles for the G25 in games like Live For Speed and GTR Evo.
Last edited by Summ on 30 Sep 2009, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

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I have used 3 different wheels and 2 had pedals. None of them stacked up to the real thing or even got close. Force Feedback is a gimmick and doesn't relay the correct information back to you as the Pilot. The closest to reality was GTR2 with a G25 when I was testing it. Though it really wasn't close it was a fun type of arcade (if the crash physics of GTR2 weren't so finicky). Of course none of those came close to that semi-real simulator I tried but that had it's own issues. Personally if I want realism I'll go to a racetrack with my RX-7. If I want to race in a computer game I use a keyboard, I simulate the missing car reactions in my head anyway which is good, yet means I never learnt how to wallride (a concept that doesn't compute!).

Sorry if I took it too harshly, just get frustrated when people make unfounded statements. Flat Out 2 is not the same as 1. 1 was very hard and very off-putting in the control dept. Flat Out 2 is a totally different beast and I recommend you try it before discarding ;)

I thought Shift had a lot of potential in the weeks before it's arrival. I was sorely disappointed though once I got to play it.
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Bojan »

Also may I remind you of the preview thing (we had quite a discussion about it after Undercover was released). All the stuff released before the game is out is only the best stuff which is released for purely marketing purposes and show the top game features.
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Kaerar »

I know what you mean Bojan, but I was disappointed because if NFS had retained a semblance of a keyboard control, I don't doubt that my views of Shift would be a lot better, but due to that error I have found I lack sympathy with any of the other errors they have made, which probably means I have a bias against it unless they resolve this controls issue. However since Most Wanted their track record hasn't been good, even if Pro Street was a laugh, the controls were a nightmare there too ;)
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by steelsnake00 »

Kaerer, for what it's worth I don't think you've ever raced anything. Prove me wrong.
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

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@Summ: SHIFT might be more colourful, but I find GT5 much more realistic when it comes to colours. I don't find it sterile at all, I find it very realistic. I'm amazed each time I see GT5 Prologue or Forza 3 in action. As for the car models, I think you should check the cars in SHIFT more carefully. I could show you right now some pictures of the game where you clearly see that the models don't have much polygons. As an example, I was checking yesterday my beautiful RX-7 for drift, and I noticed that the headlights textures are low resolution and the overall look of the car (mainly the front bumper) has a low amount of polygons, so instead of seeing a nice and smooth curve, you see some straight lines that work as a curve. You don't see that in Forza 3 or GT5, believe me. The decals, for example, are also very "pixelized". And that's not the only thing, some textures in the track also lack detail.

The only way to "officially" confirm this is of course having a car from SHIFT and another from GT5 in 3D view and count the amount of polygons. You'll see how much more polygons GT5 has compared to SHIFT. Just looking at them carefully is enough to see this, but having both models in 3D would be a definitive proof. :)

Of course that this doesn't mean SHIFT has bad models. It's the best NFS so far when it comes to graphics, and I really like the look of the game. But they're worse than the ones in GT5 and Forza 3, which seem to be the main "opponents" of SHIFT. Just that.

As for the trackside 3D objects, they wouldn't hurt the framerate that much if they would optimize the game engine. I know plenty of games who deal with a massive amount of information and they run perfectly fine when the producers work hard. Of course that this is a design decision, not to have much "outside of the track objects". But after playing GRID, I can't help myself but think that more companies should improve the surroundings in their tracks. Forza 3, for example, seems to lack this too. Everything that is outside the circuit itself is not very detailed, things look empty, dead.

This is not the most important for a racing game, true. The design of the cars and the tracks are far more important than the surroundings. However, I find them important too if you want to have an even more realistic environment. I felt like being on a race car while playing GRID. The reactions of the crowd, the sounds of the crowd, the barriers and walls getting deformed when you crash on them, the surroundings with trees, buildings and so on.

As for GRID, the game is from 2008 and SHIFT is from 2009, so don't compare them. If you want, compare SHIFT to DiRT 2, and you'll see that DiRT 2 (even being a rally game) offers much more detail than SHIFT. GRID is older, so it's normal that its graphics don't look as good as when it was released. The bloom effects you point out are in fact one of the things I don't like in the game, but I think there's a mod for the PC version that remove them, and it looks much better. Still, if you look "outside" the track, you see plenty of little things they inserted to make it more realistic and enterteining. Of course that they don't have so much detail as the cars or the circuit, but they look good IMO. And GRID is very unique when it comes to that. Most racing games just don't care about the surroundings, while GRID focus on that much more. I feel that's the way to go. After we get ultra realism inside the track, it's time to take that realism outside the track and make things much better. This is my opinion of course, but I really think that this is what we will get in the future.
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

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Hydro_PT wrote:It's hard to say how good or bad a game is without comparing it to other games of the same genre. To say "it's good" or "it's bad", you must have something else to compare it to. It's like good and evil. You only have evil because you have good, and vice versa. You get the point?
You're somehow right. But you can say how good a game is without comparing it to other games. Based on how you feel.
an example: I had never played a strategic game in my life until 3 or 4 years ago. Then, I borrowed one called Generals from a friend and I really loved it. I thought it was the best game ever! but when I went online and checked out some other games, I found out that there are games with higher ratings out there...actually I don't like any of them...just Generals :P The point is that I though that game was good without any comparison (and i have to say that it IS one of the best games, unlike that car u talked about).
But most of the time it's like what you say.
Hydro_PT wrote:Too bad you can't move your head around with the mouse
actually the first thing that i checked when the test lap started was this :D
It's funny,you know.Cuz in the options->controls menu it says "keyboard and mouse"!
Hydro_PT wrote:The exception here is drift, which sucks. Really, drifting in SHIFT is pure shiznit, the tires seem made of butter and the track made of oil. They spin at the lowest touch on the pedal, they even spin when I put the car in 5th gear at 10 km/h. WTF? I hate drift in SHIFT, it's so unrealistic and frustrating.
yeah, that sucks.but i found drifting way too much easier if you try to drift in 3rd gear! :wink:
I've won drifts.......but never done a healthy one :roll:
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Summ »

Hydro_PT wrote:As for GRID, the game is from 2008 and SHIFT is from 2009, so don't compare them.
Why not? That's all you do all the time, even in your own latest post :D. Besides, we are comparing it with GT5P, which came out all of 3 years ago, if memory serves!

If it helps any, yes, GRID did well with the off-track objects and animations, and those do help the track come alive. Point seen. My point is that it went through a shortcut to get there (bloom) and that it sacrificed detail in other areas to maintain a stable framerate. Cockpits are for instance nowhere near as detailed as Shift's or GT5's. In the end, it all depends on what engine the developers use and what optimisations they can squeeze out of it. Different engines, different performances. I do believe that most developers want to get as much crammed into their game as they can. Certain limitations keep them from fulfilling their ambitions however. It's a pity, but it isn't always their fault.

As for the vehicle details and amount of polygons - what can I say? Well spotted, I guess. Personally I have yet to use the custom livery system. I either choose a pre-made or go with pure colour, so I haven't been hit by the low-texture decal problem yet. You probably need to be more intimate with the various car models to spot polygon details such as the one you pointed out. Personally it doesn't bother me, because at this level of detail I can easily be fooled. I see your point however.
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

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@Jackhammer: Yeah but then you're reviewing the game based on what you feel, not the game's true quality. The example you gave is perfect: you loved the game but there are other games with higher ratings, thus being better (more quality). Still you don't like them, but that's another thing. I hate football games, for example, but I can't deny the quality of FIFA 09. ;)

As for the "keyboard + mouse" setup on SHIFT, the problem is that I play with a wheel, and I cannot use the mouse to look around. The wheel should never "block" the keyboard and mouse inputs IMO, but in SHIFT, that's what is happening. I can use the keyboard to move around the menus, but ingame, it's either the wheel or nothing. Why not use the mouse to look around? It's kinda "hard" to take your hands out of the wheel to use the mouse, but it would be better than nothing. Maybe it's something that they fixed with the first patch? I haven't installed it yet, but I remember reading something like "mouse control improved" or something. So far in the game I couldn't use the mouse to anything.

As for drift, well after some time playing, I'm able to win all stars in all drift events, which is my objective. I always drift in 3rd or 4th gear, but still the car can easily spin out of control. I'm glad that I already finished all drift events, so I don't have to play that mode again.

@Summ: GT5 Prologue was released in 2008 mate. One year ago, not 3. :P

When I say "don't compare them", well of course we can compare them, but since they're not games from the same year, it's normal that the latest has better graphics. That's why saying that SHIFT has better graphics than GRID isn't really fair, because one is from 2008 and the other from 2009. It's only one year, I know, but... you get the point, I think?

And I wasn't comparing GRID models or textures with SHIFT, I was just saying that racing games should have more living tracks, like GRID offers. I usually compare SHIFT with F3 or GT5, which are games coming out now (ok, GT5 was "delayed" to 2010 last time I checked). But the images and videos that we see from both games (Forza 3 has a demo out already) blow me away everytime, and when I look to SHIFT, I'm not blown away by the graphics. I recently saw a new image of GT5 showing the cockpit and the sense of speed and God! It looked so damn real... a crazy amount of polygons and high definition textures. It's the most detailed cockpit I've see in all those years, and it's a proof that we're really getting close to reality. :P

The cockpit in GRID isn't as good as in SHIFT, true. And the sense of speed in GRID (when you use the cockpit camera) sucks, you seem to be going really slow when in fact you're going at 300 km/h. DiRT suffers from the same thing, I hope they fix that with DiRT 2 and their F1 game (after all they're using the same engine).
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Summ »

^Duh. Got my facts mixed up. GT5 was has been delayed a few years now. I don't recall if it was announced in 2006 or was supposed to be released originally in 2006. Either way, I remembered a 2006 and automatically associated it with Prologue. Sorry, my mistake =).

I do get your point in regards to graphics. Basically you are saying that it's ok to compare backwards, but not to bash. As in, if we compare Shift with Grid, it's ok to highlight what Shift lacks and Grid does better - because Shift is a newer game and should not miss anything that Grid had - but it isn't fair to talk how much superior the overall graphics are in Shift in regards to Grid. I can agree to that, somehow :P.

Sense of speed is one thing that Shift and NFS games in general do really well. Yet it is also over the top. If you drive a car in GT5 Prologue, you won't get the same adrenaline rush and scare that you get in Shift just from going fast. The GTR series doesn't deliver on that, either. I do believe their sense of speed is more realistic, but Shift's is much more enjoyable. The good thing about it is that they got it from accurately modelling bumps in the road and physics that respond to them very well (and a bit of floating in straight lines, which gives the cars a sense of boat'iness -.-), keeping you on your toes all the time. It's more that than the blur. It's the camera movements inside the car that make it come alive. Really well done. GTR and GT5 tracks feel rather flat in comparison. Shift definitely raised the bar there.
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

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"Basically you are saying that it's ok to compare backwards, but not to bash. As in, if we compare Shift with Grid, it's ok to highlight what Shift lacks and Grid does better - because Shift is a newer game and should not miss anything that Grid had - but it isn't fair to talk how much superior the overall graphics are in Shift in regards to Grid."

That's exactly what I meant. :P

I couldn't agree more with you about SHIFT's sense of speed. The only problem is when you're going really fast down a straight, the car acts like a boat lol... they should fix that, no car going on a straight line shakes that much. Unless it has some really soft springs and the tarmac under it is like French cheese. :P
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Kaerar »

steelsnake00 wrote:Kaerer, for what it's worth I don't think you've ever raced anything. Prove me wrong.
How can I prove it, this is a forum, I could fake anything. However I am not lying and I did compete at Winton in the Lotus Elise Trophy cup in 2005 though ran out of funds to continue. Came 7th in Race 1, and 12th in Race 2. Have also competed in Karting and Motorkhana's as well. Also seeing as I am aiming to get my RX-7 into a race championship within the next 2 years it may be something I have a bit of knowledge about.

Back to Shift vs all previous racing games :lol:

For the most part Shift is pretty but loses it's anything it possibly had after that. The gameplay is encouraging bad driving as I don't know many people other than proper race fans going for the precision points. It's far simpler to go for the Aggression points (though why drafting is considered aggression I will never know!) which is what most muppets who play the game will care about. I've already been over the handling as many others have too, so no further need to comment on that. Another thing that confused me was the way the cars deal with vinyls and decals. Strangely this is the perfect place for that Pink Mustang or totally riced out S2000. Mainly because in drifting and racing colour schemes are so different to normal road use. SO why did they make it the most fiddly and hard to use crap since, well Underground. Even then Underground was easier, just couldn't resize much (or at all even!). Pro Street had a good system even though the actual textures and texturing of the cars almost felt like something someone remembered to do at the last minute, but this is like they purposefully made it hard work for everyone to put some stickers on a race car =D>

Rims suffered the same issues. PS's Rim system was damn near spot on. Why screw it in favour of the crap in this? Also it's a racing game, why the bling rims :shock: Where's the Compomotive, OZ Racing (not the road stuff), etc...
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Summ »

^Agree with most of what you said. A few comments - Someone I know described to me his impression of the physics in Shift as a "satisfyingly flattering simulation", meaning that it's just a tad too easy to catch the cars for it to be realistic, but that it's not that far off. Obviously, without fuel consumption, tyre wear and heat, this will never be an actual simulator. Whether it is a sim or not however, we both agreed that it had fun-factor in spades. I find the car wandering in straight lines to be.. frustrating and unrealistic, but most of the rest feels.. close to believable.

As far as aggression vs precision points, I don't understand the system either. Cars bump into me and I get aggression points? For what? Being on the track? Drafting is an aggressive move? I do get the point of this rating system however. It is supposed to help pick your races online. Seeing as this game has caught the eye of the more flexible half the sim-community (the other half bashes it bitterly), I would say that this game is probably the one with the greatest amount of clean drivers in the series. Whether that is a sizeable amount or not, I wouldn't know. I do know however, that by many this game is considered a success and a leap forward for the NFS series. It might not be perfect - what, with all the bugs, limited customization and, sometimes, mentally challenged AI - but in terms of immersion and gameplay it has set new standards for the whole racing genre. In terms of physics, it has set new standards for the NFS franchise, that bit is certain. It is still not in the same league as GT5 and the rest, but I would say it wouldn't take more than a solid patch and a bit of tweaking to raise this game from the arcade/sim? question and propel it into the sim world (without losing the fun-factor and playability for the arcade fanboys).
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Zotic+ »

Short Review Ups and Downs

Ups
-Graphics are great

-Physics are good and challenging to master(in a good way)

-Sense of speed is crazy

-Customization is like real life

-Gives you a true drivers expierience from customization to race track

Downs

-No mirror option when customizing vinyls

-Damage could be better

-Crazy AI

-Car list, why leave out cars from previous game just keep previous cars as a base and on more cars.

Overall

NFS Shift is a great game and is worth the money or at least a rent first. :) :wink:
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Summ »

Zotic+ wrote: -Car list, why leave out cars from previous game just keep previous cars as a base and on more cars.
When you change game engine, all cars have to be created from scratch. Meshes, textures and sounds could probably be imported with relative ease, but telemetry and physics (where all the real work is) need to be recreated from scratch.
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Kaerar »

True but at the same time there are a lot of cars ingame that are not really racers. That bugs me a fair bit personally, as well as dropping some that were. For instance the Ford Escort RS Cosworth, while being an iconic car is totally out of place as its territory is Rallying and Rallycross. This is a road and track racing semi-sim, not Colin McRae 13. The cars don't really feel anything like their real life counterparts (or the tiers would have to be seriously adjusted!) so reality has been suspended in favour of which company spent the most $$$. In this case BMW and GM. Though Lamborghini seem to have the only 20.99 car in the game ;)
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

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Zotic+ wrote: -Customization is like real life
Not. :P
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

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Kaerar wrote: The cars don't really feel anything like their real life counterparts (or the tiers would have to be seriously adjusted!) so reality has been suspended in favour of which company spent the most $$$.
Nothing new about that, tbh. NFS has always been like this. Imo the cars are only somewhat representative of their real life counterparts when they are mint. Then the hp and other figures have roots in real life statistics. Slapping on the various stage x mods completely shifts any semblance of reality. A murcielago at 970 hp? An M3 at almost 800 hp?! Where's the sense in that? It's disproportionate and entirely fictional - just as the kids want it. What simulatory credibility the engine might have had, ceases right here. Whoever pays the biggest cash gets the biggest numbers in the game. Simple concept, really.
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Jackhammer »

Holy ****! I just found out that u can look around in cockpit view using 2,4,6,8 in the numpad !!!!
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

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Really? Even if you have a wheel and are playing with it? I can move the camera around in the cockpit with the numpad, but only when taking a picture. Never tried ingame, since it's hard to take your hands out of the wheel to move the camera. The mouse would be much better...
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Kaerar »

Lol learn to race one handed ;)
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Hydro_PT »

I shift gears with one hand and I turn with the other when I'm shifting gears. No hands left to use the keyboard, I guess. :P

That's when I don't use those pads behind the wheel. Sometimes I like to do it "old school" and shift gears like in a real car, but without the right sequence. In my wheel I just have up and down for gears, it's not like the G25, sequential gears.
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

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Hydro_PT wrote:Really? Even if you have a wheel and are playing with it? I can move the camera around in the cockpit with the numpad, but only when taking a picture. Never tried ingame, since it's hard to take your hands out of the wheel to move the camera. The mouse would be much better...
i play with keyboard(don't have the money to buy a good wheel :P ) and the numpad works.
even with the keyboard, you should have 3 hands to do that! it also breaks your concentration and you will most probably hit something.
i kinda makes sense to me...cuz in real life, u can't focus and look around at the same time
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Re: NFS Shift user reviews

Post by Hydro_PT »

It doesn't make much sense because pilots are always looking for other cars. And they use the mirrors too. It's something I don't like in SHIFT. Everyone praises the cockpit detail and stuff, but funny enough you have working mirrors but you can't look at them. Inside the cockpit there's not virtual rear-view mirror like there's in the exterior views, so you must use the true mirror to see what's behind. Problem is, the true mirror can't be seen on its totality, and it's pretty much useless.

If you ever played DiRT, there's something Codemasters did really well. When you press the key to look behind, the camera focus on the mirror and you have that head movement like in real life. You can still see the track, but it isn't so focused on the track in front of you, the camera is more focused on the mirror so you can see what's behind. When you leave the button, the camera moves back to its place. It's really cool and realistic. And I think that when you try to look to the right or left side, the camera points to the corresponding mirror. It's very realistic.

In SHIFT you don't have that, which sucks IMO. I want to see where the cars are when overtaking so I can enter back in the racing line without having the front bumper of other car touching my rear (and making me crash). You should be able to move the camera around to see these things... dunno why you need to use the keyboard and not the mouse, which would be easier to use if you play with a wheel. Still, the way they did in DiRT seems much better for me. Weirdly you don't have that feature in GRID either, but at least you can look to the right or to the left. :S
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