My Review of "The Run"

2011 Need for Speed The Run

Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby rcgldr » 16 Feb 2012, 01:40

Note, I haven't bought a copy of The Run. I'm waiting for it to go into the bargin bins at a cheap price before I buy it. I wonder if EA is deliberately making the newer NFS games, at least the online mode, not as good as they could be in order to keep players from leaving NFS World.

VG_Speed wrote:you can feel perfectly the weight of the car and if its AWD, FWD or RWD!
I haven't read much about the physics, other than it's not realistic. Looking at vg_speed's videos, it's faster to bounce off wallls than to take corners cleanly.

The Online mode is resonable.
I don't like the idea of a random series of sprints. Online mode should allow players to choose a track and a car. I don't know why EA doesn't go back to the online mode used in Most Wanted where you saw a list of rooms, what track and what mode was being run. With Carbon and later NFS games, you're never sure if anyone else is online, but at least you could choose "any" for most of the options when trying to find a random room to start off with. ProStreet was the worst, since players had to pick a specific event from the map, and no rooms would be created unless two or more players chose the same event through dumb luck. At least Shift went back to allowing the "any" options.

EA has shutdown all the servers for older NFS games except for Carbon, Undercover, and Shift 1. I wonder if Most Wanted was shut down because of NFS World. Gamespy is still supporting Hot Pursuit 2 (2002) online.

Having no online text chat in Shift 2 was one of the main reasons it's online mode was never popular. The physics quirks were another issue.

The Single Player is not that long and can be upsetting at times.
I read that if players just want to complete career mode, it can be done in about 2 or 3 hours. Then the offline mode is "padded" with all these sidequest goals in order to unlock cars (or you can just download a save with everything unlocked).

The Challenges are a great plus I believe and the fact more can be added is good thinking
I think of this stuff as just padding to make up for a short career mode. I'm not sure about the idea of tying a lot of unlocking of content to doing the challenges.

Autolog works resonably well
The main complaint is having unlockable content tied to autolog. Some players resort to running minimal times back and forth in order to unlock content. Some players, like me, don't like the concept of autolog at all. Players should be able to choose when they want to compete, and when they simply want to get through an offline or career mode event.

Problems:
a) We should be able to make private rooms (the fact we cant, basically kills the possibility for a serious competition);
b) We should be able to turn off traffic (I understand that by having it we increase the luck factor removing importance to the player skill and things get more balanced, but it sucks);
So no proper online mode (rooms), and traffic always on and the luck factor means players don't get a sense of accomplishment from learning tracks and improving their times. NFS World got the same complaint since the beta sessions and yet EA continues not allow a traffic off option.

About the Keyboard
Most NFS games are better or the same using an analog controller instead of digital. The main exceptions are High Stakes, where digital controller with "instant steering" resulted in faster cornering speeds, and Undercover (explained below).

Underground 1 was very similar with Analog or Digital, but Gamepad seemed to be a little better. Underground 2 was best with digital.
Lap records for both games are held by players with analog controllers (joysticks or wheel). u2 wrecord com confused the issue for Underground 2 since it defaulted to showing "digital" unless a player manually changed this to show "analog". Underground 1 had a known problem where lap times were affected by a players system, but opposite of normal, slower systems got faster times, and some players with faster systems would use fraps recording to slow down a system to get better lap times.

Undercover seemed to be better with digital because of some bug I dont remember now
With analog if your car hit a wall, the car would be slowed and control inputs (throttle, steering, nitrous, ...) would be disabled for about 1 second or more. With digital, there was no slow down from hitting a wall (sometimes acceleration would increase). There was also an exploit where using hand brake with digital controller would speed up a car. Example video of the "handbrake bug":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5e2nEMmsaw

The tracks layout is very good, even if some are too twisted for the cars they want us to use. ... videos
What do you mean by too twisted? Looking at the videos, the concept of those sprint races doesn't seem much different than a budget racing game made in 2003 called Corvette Racing. Example video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0KCw1OtVxM&hd=1
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby VG_Speed » 16 Feb 2012, 22:18

HI Jeff!

I dont agree with several things you say... Others they are personal views, so I will not comment on them.

a) Where do I bounce of walls in my videos? If it were on cars, ok, since the traffic blows us most of the time, we better gave them some usage... In all my videos there is only one where thouching the wall is more or less unavoidable, the AEM Challenge, on top of the sharp climb... On all others even if I thouch the wall, its slower.

b) As far as I know I am still the 1st Ranked in NFSU2 World Records, and I used Keyboard for it (its not a mistake in my case). The guy who won WCG in 2005 in UG2 used a Digital Gamepad. Although I respect your opinions towards NFS given you encyclopedic knowledge of the games, I think you should give me a little credit about the best controllers used there, given my past in these games.

c) The SP in The Run on the easier level may be done in a few hours, but I want to see the guys who said that do it in Extreme Difficulty.

d) About the twisted tracks... Whats the point of driving a car which can reach near 400 on a track where you most of the time dont go over 4th gear? Whats the point of putting 700 hp Muscle Cars in Mountain Roads? :S

Cya! Glad to hear from you!

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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby rcgldr » 17 Feb 2012, 00:32

VG_Speed wrote:a) Where do I bounce of walls in my videos?
At 1:40 in the Ford Challenge video (the first one I looked at, I don't recall about the other videos). Most of the time though if you do scrape a wall, it's to avoid traffic as opposed to taking a turn. I meant to say bounce off walls or cars, but left out the part about cars. I shouldn't have focused on wall bouncing, since I was more interested in how realistic the handling is. For example, High Stakes physics is more arcade than Porsche Unleashed, but bouncing off walls is generally bad in High Stakes (even a light scrape quickly slows a car), while it works well in Porsche Unleashed.

VG_Speed wrote:handling ... RWD ... AWD ...
From your earlier post. It is difficult to see what the handling is like from a video unless there's a lot of oversteer such as Shift 1 or Grand Prix Legends. What is the difference in feel for RWD versus AWD? There wasn't much evidence of understeer or oversteer in the videos. Reviews about the handling have been mixed, other than to note that different cars have different feel. NFS World's actual handling is neutral for all cars, and the main variation between how cars "feel" is grip level (actually a steering limiter), and the amount of delay in response to steering inputs, using a longer delay to emulate a heavier car.

VG_Speed wrote:As far as I know I am still the 1st Ranked in NFSU2 World Records, and I used Keyboard for it (its not a mistake in my case).
In the case of NFSU2, there doesn't seem to be any clear advantage for digital with NFSU2 like a player gets with High Stakes or Undercover. It seems to be player preference. As for u2 wrecord com, I was only pointing out that some of those entries listed as digital were made using analog, since wrecord defaulted the entry to digital. I didn't mean to imply that all of them were incorrectly listed as digital.

VG_Speed wrote:The SP in The Run on the easier level may be done in a few hours, but I want to see the guys who said that do it in Extreme Difficulty.
Extreme difficulty would take longer, but only because you're repeating lot of event or sections. If player uses easy mode and gets through most of the events on the first try, then the career mode is shorter than most NFS games. The short career mode was a common complaint from game site and player reviews, along with expectations of an epic career mode since it crosses the USA. I recall Carbon was criticized for it's relatively short career mode, which uses 73 events (out of a total of 115 events plus 1 unique crew race), plus sidequests like rival challenges, defend races, or pursuits, which would take longer than the 2 or 3 hours for The Run in easy mode. How many actual events (tracks) are there in The Run's career mode?


VG_Speed wrote:About the twisted tracks... Whats the point of driving a car which can reach near 400 on a track where you most of the time dont go over 4th gear? Whats the point of putting 700 hp Muscle Cars in Mountain Roads?
Some other NFS games also include short twisty tracks and long high speed tracks, for example, NFSU2's Freemont and Outer Ring, or the very tight Street X tracks, but it's not an issue for those games. It seems the issue for The Run is that in career mode your stuck with a car until you get to a garage and it's not clear which car to use the first time you play career mode. This was one of the complaints in some of the game site reviews. I'm not sure the tracks themselves are an issue as much as the cars. Is the handling of the muscle cars much worse than other cars in the game?
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby VG_Speed » 17 Feb 2012, 18:56

Hi again!

a) From my videos you cant clearly see the AWD, FWD or RWD, because my videos, being resonable good times, can only be achieved if you dont let the car slide! :S I think when you decide to buy the game you will remember this. Its clearly modulated in the game the kind of traction you have and you can feel it. The only note about it is that some tunned RWD cars maybe dont loose the back like one would expect and are pretty stiff, but I am quite sure they were made like that on purpose.
When I look at my videos I many times get really frustrated, because they dont make any justice to the effort necessary to do them! :S Most of the best videos with the slower cars seem really easy even when they are dead hard to achieve.

b) The video of the Ford you talk about, I hit the wood on the exit of the dirt because the car slides too much... That coasted me time... I wrote this on the comments of that video...
During my lap there is a point I go 0.6s slower then one previous attempt, making it possible to beat 1m 48.5s, although the video is "only" am 49.1s. Usually I would never publish videos that I didnt consider close to the limit, but in The Run, due to the Traffic factor, sometimes is not what can be done, but what can be achieved, which is different.

And you are wrong about Analog Controllers in NFSU2... In WCG I think only one analog player reached Top10, the others were all Digital. In World Records, from what I can remember, only in the autobahn tracks Analog players could fight for 1st place.

All the best!

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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby Hydro_PT » 17 Feb 2012, 19:14

Your opinions are very interesting to read. :)

But just to clarify, cars don't exactly behave according just to their type of traction. Many things influence this, mainly, the engine's placement. A front-engine RWD car can have lots of oversteer due to the light rear, while a rear-engine RWD car can in fact understeer because there isn't enough "weight" on the front wheels. And there are much more factors, like traction power, types of tyres, front and rear wings, etc.

So don't judge a car's behaviour because it is FWD, RWD or AWD. Things like "you can feel if it's FWD, RWD or AWD" don't really make much sense. Arcade games can easily do that because since they don't deal much with physics, they just overdo the car's behaviour to make it more "natural". For instance, you would expect a Z06 to have a rear loose end, so they make it that way to be believable. I don't think it's something that favours The Run, honestly. And from what I've played, the handling is so poor in most tracks that it is hard to feel something in the car.
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby rcgldr » 17 Feb 2012, 19:49

VG_Speed wrote:a) From my videos you cant clearly see the AWD, FWD or RWD, because my videos, being resonable good times, can only be achieved if you dont let the car slide!
OK, that makes sense. The point I was making is that with some racing games, especially the simulation oriented ones, best times are acheived if the cars are sliding (oversteering) a bit in turns. Extreme examples of this are Shift 1 and Grand Prix Legends.

VG_Speed wrote:Most of the best videos with the slower cars seem really easy even when they are dead hard to achieve.
Do you get a sense of when the cars are at the limits or do you have to somewhat memorize the track a bit to memorize how fast to take each turn? NFS World is like this, since it uses a steering limiter instead of letting the tires reach maximum grip or slide. There's no sense of being at the limit until the game stops responding to steering inputs beyond some point and then the car usually goes wide.

VG_Speed wrote:b) The video of the Ford you talk about, I hit the wood on the exit of the dirt because the car slides too much... That cost me time ...
OK, it was just the first video I noticed. So for best times you really have to learn the tracks. This can be an issue if there are a large number of tracks.

VG_Speed wrote:traffic
This is what I hate about traffic always on in racing games, especially for multi-player. You rarely get a clean lap, and avoiding traffic often means you can't take the best line.

VG_Speed wrote:And you are wrong about Analog Controllers in NFSU2.
I looked at u2 wrecords com, and I can't find where it shows what controllers were used. Either wrecord removed that information, or I was thinking of another wrecord type web site that included the controllers being used or it was werecord, but for a different game (wrecord for NFS Shift includes controller type). I only recall what the fastest players online claimed they were using for controllers, and some were using non-force feedback wheels, and a few were using joysticks. If there is an advantage to using digital controllers with NFSU2, I never saw it explained at any web or forum site. In the case of High Stakes and Undercover, the reasons digital controllers were faster was well understood and explained at several forums.

On a side note, weren't most of the NFSU2 circuit lap records done by maximizing nitrous, using it all on one lap and wall riding? The sprint records were a bit more realistic since they didn't start off with max nitrous. Street x (street cross, guess they couldn't use the name auto cross), didn't have nitrous.

- - -

Stil curious, anyone know how many events there are in the main career mode for The Run?
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby Hydro_PT » 17 Feb 2012, 20:31

rcgldr wrote:The point I was making is that with some racing games, especially the simulation oriented ones, best times are acheived if the cars are sliding (oversteering) a bit in turns. Extreme examples of this are Shift 1 and Grand Prix Legends.


I'm not sure I agree with that. A car that loses grip loses time. Oversteering can be slightly beneficial to "insert" the front better into a corner, but it has to be so well-controlled by the pilot that is often uncommon. A sliding car is losing time and wearing the tyres, which is not good.
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby rcgldr » 18 Feb 2012, 00:08

rcgldr wrote:The point I was making is that with some racing games, especially the simulation oriented ones, best times are acheived if the cars are sliding (oversteering) a bit in turns. Extreme examples of this are Shift 1 and Grand Prix Legends.


Hydro_PT wrote:I'm not sure I agree with that. A car that loses grip loses time. Oversteering can be slightly beneficial to "insert" the front better into a corner, but it has to be so well-controlled by the pilot that is often uncommon. A sliding car is losing time and wearing the tyres, which is not good.
That's true in real life, but oversteering is used in many simulation oriented racing games to give a sense of what's going on at the rear end of a car. In the case of Grand Prix Legends, the bias ply racing tires used on 1967 Formula 1 cars had large "slip angles" so even the real cars looked like they were oversteering in turns. GPL just exaggerates this. Example videos, use ctrl-click to open a new window and avoid navigating away from this forum:

Old dual view (top is in car, bottom is chase) wmv video from GPL - Rouen - driven by Greg Stewart:
http://rcgldr.net/gpl/gplrngs.wmv

Youtube video of a series of replays from Shift 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN2DJ1fngJQ&hd=1
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby Hydro_PT » 18 Feb 2012, 00:21

rcgldr wrote:That's true in real life


It's also true in the PC simulators I tried: GTR 2, rFactor, Race 07, iRacing, NetKar PRO... :)

Taking SHIFT as a simulator is not a good idea, because it is not a simulator, and the cars just slide around without any reason. As for GP Legends, I think it's not exaggerating. At the time those cars were really powerful and they had no rear wings. But I haven't played that one, so I can't say for sure. But in the simulators I mentioned above, sliding or oversteering in corners is very uncommon and it will just make you lose time. :)
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby rcgldr » 18 Feb 2012, 00:43

rcgldr wrote:not oversteering for best lap times ... That's true in real life


Hydro_PT wrote:It's also true in the PC simulators I tried: GTR 2, rFactor, Race 07, iRacing, NetKar PRO...
Depends on the game and the car. Usually high downforce cars are setup with a rear bias on downforce to avoid snap oversteer (at least in real life).

GTLegends was based on the same ISI physics engine and there was some oversteer used on those non-downforce cars for best lap times.

In the case of iRacing, it depends on the car. Also iRacing at least used to visually exagerate oversteer while racing, but the exageration would be gone when viewing a replay. I don't know if this is still true. If not worried about tire temps, some cars were happy to slide with iRacing. The old rookie Solstice seemed to do best when using a bit of oversteer. Example video (driven and uploaded by another player) (use ctrl-click to avoid navigating away from forum):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CiBGna5qX4&hd=1

Example quad view video of the Radical where lift throttle induced oversteer is countered with steering induced understeer, resulting in 4 wheel drift (similar method was used in GPL) (look at the small screens on the side to see this, mostly at 25 seconds into the video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRBs61lwh4M&hd=1

Getting back on topic, I assume that most of the cars in The Run are non or low downforce cars. I don't know how The Run gives a player an indication of when a car is at the limits or how cars will react.

Also looking at the videos, no mirror?
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby WickedKilla333 » 20 Apr 2012, 03:17

This is my first reply on this. (seeing how Ive just joined today. :P) Ive played the run, and I have to say it is quite boring once beaten. sure the challenge series is always available, but I think blackbox uses it as an excuse to cut out more game play in the story/campaign/career.

I think the nfs series has gone to dependent on the "just hit gas n' go" theory and come quite dull with the storyline. I like to have a sense of reason as to running from the cops or challenging a rival. a reason other than "You gotta win this."

I used to play nfs Most Wanted ALL the time just because it had at least a little bit more of a story, which played off from another story: nfs Carbon. (Which I thought was WAY too short btw.) I wish nfs stories were connected to other nfs games to help keep a good story alive, also keeping in mind a good story to begin with.

That's my take on the situation of the game. Thnx 4 reading.
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby xturbo » 20 Apr 2012, 19:32

WickedKilla333 wrote:This is my first reply on this. (seeing how Ive just joined today. :P) Ive played the run, and I have to say it is quite boring once beaten. sure the challenge series is always available, but I think blackbox uses it as an excuse to cut out more game play in the story/campaign/career.

I think the nfs series has gone to dependent on the "just hit gas n' go" theory and come quite dull with the storyline. I like to have a sense of reason as to running from the cops or challenging a rival. a reason other than "You gotta win this."

I used to play nfs Most Wanted ALL the time just because it had at least a little bit more of a story, which played off from another story: nfs Carbon. (Which I thought was WAY too short btw.) I wish nfs stories were connected to other nfs games to help keep a good story alive, also keeping in mind a good story to begin with.

That's my take on the situation of the game. Thnx 4 reading.


Welcome to the forums, I hope you can find more info about NFS series mate! :)
This is a very good review actually. I agree in lots of points with you when you mention that BlackBox went to a "hit gas n' go" thing. BlackBox went to a very dull thing with this storyline, similar to Undercover's plot where there's an illegal motivation behind the racer protagonist.

I miss the no story at all thing, just like the old school nfs, just race, collect cars and have fun in the tracks...that's all NFS for me. Criterion has to do a better thing if they want to prevail as "saviours" of the NFS franchise :)
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby Hydro_PT » 20 Apr 2012, 21:49

I actually finished The Run a few days ago (it took some will to do it using a keyboard lol), so I can add a few more things about it. But before that, I must say that I only finished the game for two reasons: first, I have never left a NFS game unfinished so far (I started with Porsche Unleashed); and second, my new graphics card somehow made the game a little bit more enjoyable. Don't ask me why, honestly I don't know. It is true that I went from LOW to HIGH, but the framerate is the same and in terms of gameplay the cars still feel like bricks on rails. I had to drive using the "hood camera", because the third person camera is awful. Also, very important mental note that I took: never look back. It looks like the car is stopped and the scenery is passing by when you look back. Horrible sense of speed, horrible sense that "the car is too big for the scenery". Frostbite 2 to blame here in my opinion. But despite all this, I enjoyed some parts, mainly due to the scenery and the music. The avalanche part is my favourite one. It's very "over-the-top-movie-like scene", but it was quite good, and I finished it without using any reset. =D>

Now about the game. The first complaint is, of course, the length. I knew The Run was really short, but honestly, I didn't expect it to be this short! :shock: It took me exactly 2 hours and 5 minutes to finish the entire Run, from SF to NY. 2 hours. I mean, the game is about a big race from one coast of the USA to the other, and then you just eat all those miles in 2 hours. The game lost pretty much all appeal to me right there. Example: I start one stage and I'm 1500 km from NY. I finish the first race of that stage in, let's say, 3 minutes. The distance of that race, as the game points out, was 9 km. Magically, at the start of the next race I'm just 900 km away from NY. What the f***?? If the game is about The Run, why doesn't the run lasts much longer like it is supposed to? Also, my average speed was 220 km/h... #-o

The story is also quite dull. If you can call that a story, of course. To me there's no story at all, you just drive and overtake opponents, that's it. No other racing modes, no Quick Race.

Well this is what I can add, running out of time now. If someone replies to this I might write a bit more. :D
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby xturbo » 21 Apr 2012, 10:40

Hydro_PT wrote: Also, very important mental note that I took: never look back. It looks like the car is stopped and the scenery is passing by when you look back. Horrible sense of speed, horrible sense that "the car is too big for the scenery". Frostbite 2 to blame here in my opinion. But despite all this, I enjoyed some parts, mainly due to the scenery and the music. The avalanche part is my favourite one. It's very "over-the-top-movie-like scene", but it was quite good, and I finished it without using any reset. =D>


I didn't understand what you mean in that line bro, you mean it "lags" when you look back or does it "freeze" when you look back? I don't think I have experienced that in my playthrough, probably it isn't an inteded effect also :S


Hydro_PT wrote: The story is also quite dull. If you can call that a story, of course. To me there's no story at all, you just drive and overtake opponents, that's it. No other racing modes, no Quick Race.


Well, don't know if BlackBox believes that the cliché stories will work in the future to be honest. I wasn't expecting THE story in this one after Undercover....
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby Hydro_PT » 21 Apr 2012, 15:39

It is hard to explain the effect, to be honest. But I will try...

I drive using the hood cam, because that's the one that gives me the best sense of speed (compared to the other two cameras). The third person camera is weird for a number of reasons: it is placed too close to the car; it is too sticky (meaning, it doesn't move with the car); the sense of speed is pretty much zero using that camera; and overall I have the feeling that the car is too big for the scenery and that it is on rails. Very hard to explain, but that's what I feel.

When I look back, all of this applies and also one more thing: the game lags when I look back, which makes everything above even worse. My feeling when I look back is that the car is stopped and the scenery goes by, like a very bad commercial, you know, when they use a fake car over another video of a road. Something like this (not so exaggerated):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCorJG9mubk&t=48s

I hope you understood now. It is quite hard do describe. I could make a video showing it, but if you didn't experience this in your game, then I suppose it is a matter of how my eyes and brain work together in The Run. After all we all see differently the same thing. How poetic is that? :mrgreen:
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby xturbo » 01 May 2012, 19:14

Yep, I undestand now. It is probably an effect that sometimes I think I've noticed, and it's like "WTF", but it proves the lack of sense of speed in this game :)
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby Mr Xclusive » 24 Sep 2012, 00:17

the steering in this game sucks


i hate it


other than that its okay
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Re: My Review of "The Run"

Postby Hydro_PT » 24 Sep 2012, 21:11

Mr Xclusive wrote:i hate it

other than that its okay


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