Performance Tuning Tips

Performance tuner hangout for discussion related to performance tuning and blueprints.

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby viper16 on 15 Nov 2007, 01:02

XJ220 wrote:It really depends on the AWD system too...every AWD car is different on different conditions... (damn,I really should get my lazy bumbum up and post those articles I talked about long ago...I guess highschool keeps me busy :lol: )

ps:ill just say...pure AWD,without any kind of electronical control system,makes the car understeery and very very crappy at cornering (even a fixed 10-90 f/r setup just fux0rs up handling,they REALLY need programmed traction control systems when it comes to cornering and handling...)


As he said the AWD system in a EVO,STI,R34 and the others are all different some might be all time AWD, limited AWD or some other form
Image
User avatar
viper16
Drift King
Drift King
 
Posts: 993
Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 02:09
Location: Aberdeen, Washington

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby emp3ror86 on 15 Nov 2007, 08:18

Yup, that's right.
The best AWD system is in the R34 GT-R.

And finally the Skyline is as powerful and handable in the game as it should be! Damn best car for grip!

Before that I had to go with 240SX, and after tuned up that is really good also.
Image
User avatar
emp3ror86
Ricer
Ricer
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 18:24
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby XJ220 on 15 Nov 2007, 15:56

emp3ror86 wrote:Yup, that's right.
The best AWD system is in the R34 GT-R.

And finally the Skyline is as powerful and handable in the game as it should be! Damn best car for grip!

Before that I had to go with 240SX, and after tuned up that is really good also.


That's correct :mrgreen: . Well,the R34 Nür has the newest version of the attessa-ets pro,and probably the new GTR too,but the most up-to-date "public" version of it is on the regular R34,yep...
Oh,its the best AWD system onroad,offroad is a completely different history (at least that's what im told :lol: ),but it will probably 0wnz0r on prostreet =P~

Cya soon on prostreet (i hope :P)
XJ220
Ricer
Ricer
 
Posts: 24
Joined: 27 Oct 2007, 15:33

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby pigi on 16 Nov 2007, 12:38

dunno dunno about best AWD system in skyline. But subaru AWD system a reperfect also. Its because subaru are rally car.
Image
User avatar
pigi
Turbo Charged
Turbo Charged
 
Posts: 103
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 15:14

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby kct on 19 Nov 2007, 03:40

I would rather say each to their own. While Subaru's AWD system (they insist that we call it 'AWD' anyway) is geared towards nothing but traction all the time (they are full-time AWD), the Skyline GT-R's system is for the purpose of traction on demand, that means, the front wheels will come to 'life' ONLY when they are needed (it is a known fact that Skylines were rear-driven on straight lines, things change when they take a corner). They are geared towards track racing, since the ATTESA E-TS system (there were several versions) is known to be completely thrown off control off-road.
kct
Ricer
Ricer
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 24 Oct 2007, 04:43

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby emp3ror86 on 23 Nov 2007, 10:31

Well it's about driving style too. I like the ATTESA-ETS system of the Skyline cuz I like RWD so it suits me best.
Anyway I'm about to test every AWD car. For tracks with many corners I think EVO or STi will be the good choice. For others with long straitgh sections, with bigger corners where more power is needed I think Skyline will be the ruler.
My opininon is that grip is the only race mode where you need to have more cars, at least two. One for technical tracks, one for the speed-oriented ones.

Did you notice that GT-R and GT-R Proto is 1700 KG? :shock:
Image
User avatar
emp3ror86
Ricer
Ricer
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 18:24
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby Grez~Supra_RZ-S on 26 Nov 2007, 12:02

Just to clear up some stuff:

-As someone on here already said, theres not much point in setting your turbo to spool up at low RPMs. In the case of sequential twins, you have a smaller diameter turbo in order to help the larger one spool (as seen in the CT26 turbos of the MKIV Supra). Regardless of track technicality, you need to be driving the car on the revs, as thats where torque/bhp curves peak. Even low-revving cars (Camaros etc) still make the bulk of their torque further up the powerband, just not in comparison to lower-torque cars like Civics. Therefore, even a track is very tight, you still want the turbos to spool from mid-range to upper. If you find youre driving off-boost all the time, youre in the wrong gear.

-Suspension set-up and driver skill will always beat power. This site is pretty good at explaining the three major factors in suspension geometry, and could help you set up your car. If it will help anyone, I can post up my wheel alignment for my own MX5 track car. Tyre pressures are also a LOT more important than people give them credit for. As a general rule of thumb, straight line grip doesnt really need any tyre pressure, cornering grip needs high pressures. The difference round Blyton track between just 30 and 35PSI was unreal, at 35 there was so much more grip available.

-All the top cars in motor racing events are RWD. Drag racing, Time Attack, Drift (obviously), Solo, Autocross, even most of the old Group B rally cars were RWD. Generally, AWD understeers under very-heavy cornering. Its not an inherent flaw as such, its the way its designed to work - as the front loses grip, power is taken from the rear and distributed to the front. In that way it acts like a FWD car, the front tyres scrabbling for grip whilst trying to use the friction to turn. Its not as bad as a pure FWD, as you do still have the rears trying to swing you round. AWD cars generally make faster street cars, theyre much more useable and no matter the conditions, they always have grip. However, they only make faster street cars because not everyone is a talented driver (Im including myself there). RWD is always on the edge, and can handle very loosely. Every car Ive owned has been RWD, and after years its only now I can start competently taking on the average person in an AWD car. Get someone skilled in an AWD car and Im dust, but again that relates back to driver skill. Remember, loose is fast. :mrgreen:

Edit - For whoever asked how realistic the game is; its actually not bad. The braking lines are fairly accurate, and theyve got rid of most of the arcade feel of previous NFS games. Some of the modifications you can carry out are limited (no engine transplants and weight loss which is a bit odd considering most games nowadays). But a lot of the set-up rings true. Its not quite Forza 2, but its a pretty damned good effort. :wink:
*sig removed for being too big. limitations are 550x120px & 50kb*
User avatar
Grez~Supra_RZ-S
Valued Member
Valued Member
 
Posts: 3092
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 21:46
Location: Hair Salon

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby CyberNerd952 on 26 Nov 2007, 15:27

Totally aree, with everything you say. True racing cars are RWD and to be honest, 4WD seem to be awful on track.

As with the turbo settings, definately in the Mid-High RPM range. Most race drivers use left foot braking, so as to keep the throttle in that optimum rev range. So as was said, if your not in the boost range your in the wrong gear.

Does anyone have an opinion on camber settings? I usually set it to negative, with the front set at around -3.5 degrees and the back between -2 and -2.5.
CyberNerd952
Stock
Stock
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 26 Nov 2007, 14:32

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby Frenzy on 26 Nov 2007, 15:41

Camber...

The stiffer your suspension overall and specifically your anti-roll bars, the less camber you need because the wheels do not roll as much. Positive camber is useful for keeping things going in a straight line, so for drags, you'll wand slight positive camber on the front wheels and not camber at all on the rear wheels (assuming your car is rwd.)
Image
Frenzy
Turbo Charged
Turbo Charged
 
Posts: 166
Joined: 23 Jul 2006, 21:18
Location: England

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby Lan.Evo.III on 26 Nov 2007, 16:10

CyberNerd952 wrote:Totally aree, with everything you say. True racing cars are RWD.


True track racing cars maybe. But keep in mind, you take a track RWD car to the rally racing, and there will be no hope for it.

And dont mention a rally car doing bad on track, because alot of rally tracks involve tarmac.
And keep in mind, if you want grip and traction, you cant overlook any AWD car, they are the kings of traction.
Image
User avatar
Lan.Evo.III
Drift King
Drift King
 
Posts: 496
Joined: 30 Jan 2007, 15:21
Location: Good ol' franga, Aussie

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby Grez~Supra_RZ-S on 26 Nov 2007, 21:02

Generally, I always dial in some negative camber on the rears. Old habits die hard. :P Especially for a track car though, negative camber is very important. It makes the car more stable under hard cornering, and the more negative you go, the easier oversteering becomes.

Heres a quick look at mine. Its a little inaccurate since I havent re-aligned the wheels/suspension since fitting these new wider wheels. But you get the idea:

Image

And dont mention a rally car doing bad on track, because alot of rally tracks involve tarmac.


You dont honestly think they use the same set-up though, do you? WRC teams completely re-align the wheels and suspension for every kind of surface, no matter how similar. I was talking to an ex-group B-er recently who told me that they used to swap entire coilover units just for different types of gravel.

And keep in mind, if you want grip and traction, you cant overlook any AWD car, they are the kings of traction.


Honestly, theyre not. In street trim, for the average driver maybe. But thats down to driver inexperience and lack of power. Look at the top dogs of all forms of motorsport, and youll find that for the most part, theyre RWD. Remember, neither F1 teams or the NHRA use AWD cars. :wink:
*sig removed for being too big. limitations are 550x120px & 50kb*
User avatar
Grez~Supra_RZ-S
Valued Member
Valued Member
 
Posts: 3092
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 21:46
Location: Hair Salon

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby Lan.Evo.III on 26 Nov 2007, 23:19

I dont mean the rally tracks that are mostly tarmac. I was at an event a few months ago, wet conditions, dirt/mud and tarmac, yet the WRX I was watching just glided over the tarmac there perfectly, even though it would have been set up for the dirt/mud. I'm not saying all tracks and stuff are the same, but they can still drive tarmac really well.

NFS:PS, is basically a legal street racing game, I never at any point refered to the AWD system to be used in a proffesional circuit.

If you are looking for a RWD with good traction though, look for a mid-ship.

I'm just saying, a rally car set up for dirt, gravel, snow and mud could drive accross tarmac, albeit, not as fast as a car set up to run tarmac surfaces, but still. My only point is, there is really no other car that can do a rally cars job.
And that is why I like AWD cars, unfortunatly, they tend to have alot of understeer, if incorectly, or untuned. But when you do tune an Evo 9 for the track, it can be one hell of a car. I beleive an Evo 9 holds the Tsukuba Time Attack course record too.
Image
User avatar
Lan.Evo.III
Drift King
Drift King
 
Posts: 496
Joined: 30 Jan 2007, 15:21
Location: Good ol' franga, Aussie

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby emp3ror86 on 27 Nov 2007, 13:52

I'm happy to see some people with knowledge ended up here :!:
That's why I created this topic. :wink:
User avatar
emp3ror86
Ricer
Ricer
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 18:24
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby emp3ror86 on 27 Nov 2007, 13:55

About the AWD thing, in which I agree with you, what do you think about Skyline?
I think that must be the best since basically that car is RWD.
Image
User avatar
emp3ror86
Ricer
Ricer
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 18:24
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby Lan.Evo.III on 27 Nov 2007, 22:10

To be perfectly honest. I am not a fan of the R33 or R34. I do enjoy the 32 though. But, if I wanted to drive a RWD R34, I would get Forza 2 back, and perform the R390 Powertrain swap. Then I would have a car that takes some form of skill to drive, the Skyline just seems to be too easy to master in video games, because it is known for it's level of cornering assistance.

Now, I just hope that when I actually get the game, that the MR2 is in it, and as good, or better than it is in Forza(not likely :lol: ).
Image
User avatar
Lan.Evo.III
Drift King
Drift King
 
Posts: 496
Joined: 30 Jan 2007, 15:21
Location: Good ol' franga, Aussie

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby emp3ror86 on 28 Nov 2007, 00:44

Lan.Evo.III wrote:To be perfectly honest. I am not a fan of the R33 or R34. I do enjoy the 32 though. But, if I wanted to drive a RWD R34, I would get Forza 2 back, and perform the R390 Powertrain swap. Then I would have a car that takes some form of skill to drive, the Skyline just seems to be too easy to master in video games, because it is known for it's level of cornering assistance.

Now, I just hope that when I actually get the game, that the MR2 is in it, and as good, or better than it is in Forza(not likely :lol: ).


I would be more than happy if I could play Forza 2, but I can't:( I don't have Xbox nor PS3. Since the good simulator racing games are just for consoles I'm thinking about buying one...

To be perfectly honest I'm an R34 fan. :D
But I like almost everything that got an RB26DETT as stock.

I would like to drive MR2, too. But sadly that won't be in the game :(

Why don't U got the game... yet? :shock:
Image
User avatar
emp3ror86
Ricer
Ricer
 
Posts: 30
Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 18:24
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby Lan.Evo.III on 28 Nov 2007, 01:46

It was only released for X360 yesterday, and sadly, I have other things that need attention before video games...

Like paying rent, and for internet. So I just dont have the AUD$80 spare at the moment.
Image
User avatar
Lan.Evo.III
Drift King
Drift King
 
Posts: 496
Joined: 30 Jan 2007, 15:21
Location: Good ol' franga, Aussie

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby Grez~Supra_RZ-S on 28 Nov 2007, 11:36

The main reason that the R34 is such an astonishing car is due to the fact that it is predominantly RWD. Other AWD systems like those on the Evo/Impreza and the ST205 GT-Four operate on the transfer box giving around a 40:60 split in power.

I agree rally cars are amazing, but then not all of them are AWD. Some of the most 'hardcore' of the older rally cars were RWD...until Group B was banned entirely for being too dangerous.

To be perfectly honest. I am not a fan of the R33 or R34. I do enjoy the 32 though. But, if I wanted to drive a RWD R34


All three of the popular generations of Skyline are practically the same. A lot of people claim the '32 as fastest due to its lack of weight, but then the RB26 in the '33 and '34 produce more torque. Ive driven a '32 GTR and a '33 GTR, and I must say they were incredible. So much so I was in talks to buy an R32 GTS-T ex-drift car, but unfortunately the deal fell through. I havent yet driven an R34, largely due to the fact theyre so expensive no-one in their right mind will let me do a lap in one. :mrgreen:

There are RWD variants of the R34 though just in case you were unsure. The GTR is the only AWD Skyline, the GTT, and GTS-T are both RWD.

I beleive an Evo 9 holds the Tsukuba Time Attack course record too.


There is controversy over the top spot on Tsukuba. An Evo does hold the record, although is made out of an entire carbon fibre body, which many manufacturers have claimed as foul play. The unofficial record belongs to a Skyline GTR incidentally, beating the Cyber Evo's time by almost half a second. Interestingly enough, an RX7 holds the 3rd place record, lagging behind the Evo by .1 of a second.

If you are looking for a RWD with good traction though, look for a mid-ship.


MR cars are good up to a certain point. After that point, they just become ditch-finders, particularly in the MR2s case. As you increase the power, the risk of snap-oversteer increases even more. A lot of the greatest handling cars ever made have used an MR layout, but on the street theyre just plain dangerous. :P
*sig removed for being too big. limitations are 550x120px & 50kb*
User avatar
Grez~Supra_RZ-S
Valued Member
Valued Member
 
Posts: 3092
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 21:46
Location: Hair Salon

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby viper16 on 28 Nov 2007, 17:52

There is controversy over the top spot on Tsukuba. An Evo does hold the record, although is made out of an entire carbon fibre body, which many manufacturers have claimed as foul play. The unofficial record belongs to a Skyline GTR incidentally, beating the Cyber Evo's time by almost half a second. Interestingly enough, an RX7 holds the 3rd place record, lagging behind the Evo by .1 of a second.
I take it you mean the HKS TRB-02 Carbon Evo that ran a 53 second lap time. And how much is a R34 in the UK cant you import one from somewhere for cheaper.
Image
User avatar
viper16
Drift King
Drift King
 
Posts: 993
Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 02:09
Location: Aberdeen, Washington

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby Grez~Supra_RZ-S on 28 Nov 2007, 22:41

R34 GTRs fetch around £30k on average here used. Obviously if you want a Nur edition, or any other LM youll likely be paying more. An R32 GTR by comparison will fetch around £6-7k in good condition used.

All Skylines are imports though. The people who say ''UK spec'' Skylines dont actually realise that they were simply imported by Nissan, theyre no different than if you imported one yourself. :P
*sig removed for being too big. limitations are 550x120px & 50kb*
User avatar
Grez~Supra_RZ-S
Valued Member
Valued Member
 
Posts: 3092
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 21:46
Location: Hair Salon

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby RobinZ on 29 Nov 2007, 04:27

just a few tips for grip not related to the current discussion:




-Grip is all about getting the perfect balance between your car's grip on the road, and speed (with more emphasis on grip)

-Tune your car so it has a lower center of gravity, with plenty of downforce and always use grip tires on a car (haven't gotten PS yet so i dont know if it's like carbon in that area), unless you obviously like to drift on these courses.

-You wanna tune your car's engine and turbo to the track with the info listed in some above posts.

-Keep the brakes generally towards the front, as this generates some oversteer. The oversteer in braking will generally help you corner on most cars if you can control the car.*


*this tip not recommended for muscles, as they tend to already have a lot of oversteer










CyberNerd952 wrote:Most race drivers use left foot braking, so as to keep the throttle in that optimum rev range.


P.S. Oh and by the way CyberNerd, that is not true. Left-foot braking is used usually in rally or kart racing. Most drivers use their left foot for their clutch and do not use this as it will cause some overlap between the throttle and brakes, which causes extra wear on the transmission and brakes. Most non-rally drivers never use this type of braking, and can cause lapses of uncontrollable driving. And by the way, drivers who do use it do not use the technique for "keeping the throttle in the optimal rev range", they use it to reduce the time between the throttle and braking, reducing trail-braking oversteer, and/or car load maneuvers. Please check your facts before posting them...
Image
User avatar
RobinZ
Turbo Charged
Turbo Charged
 
Posts: 180
Joined: 24 Dec 2005, 04:18
Location: USA

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby viper16 on 29 Nov 2007, 05:15

P.S. Oh and by the way CyberNerd, that is not true. Left-foot braking is used usually in rally or kart racing. Most drivers use their left foot for their clutch and do not use this as it will cause some overlap between the throttle and brakes, which causes extra wear on the transmission and brakes. Most non-rally drivers never use this type of braking, and can cause lapses of uncontrollable driving. And by the way, drivers who do use it do not use the technique for "keeping the throttle in the optimal rev range", they use it to reduce the time between the throttle and braking, reducing trail-braking oversteer, and/or car load maneuvers. Please check your facts before posting them...


There is also Heel-Toe Braking. My advice for drift soften up the rear suspension and get a LSD. For speed get a lot of power and downforce
Image
User avatar
viper16
Drift King
Drift King
 
Posts: 993
Joined: 01 Jul 2006, 02:09
Location: Aberdeen, Washington

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby Grez~Supra_RZ-S on 29 Nov 2007, 11:49

-Keep the brakes generally towards the front, as this generates some oversteer. The oversteer in braking will generally help you corner on most cars if you can control the car.*
*this tip not recommended for muscles, as they tend to already have a lot of oversteer


...Thats not the reason why its best to bias the brakes towards the fronts. True, the weight shift caused by braking does take the weight away from the rear wheels, which can induce oversteer by turning the wheel. But then you shouldnt brake and turn at the same time anyway, particularly if youre on a track.

Brakes are biased towards the front for weight transfer, but not for the above reason. When the weight shifts forward, the rear wheels become ''light'', and in a braking situation, essentially irrelevant. If the rear brakes were strong, they would simply lock up, and the weaker front brakes would be left to take the brunt of the force. A more simplistic version of the theory is to think about hat happens on a push-bike. Whether its an old cantilever style brake, or a 4-pot hydraulic disc, the rear brake will always reach a point under hard braking where its exactly the same - locked up. While the front takes the majority of the weight transfer.

The only real reason that rear brakes generally are upgraded is to match the fronts and help keep stability. Under heavy braking, if the fronts are much larger than the rears, the car will squirm, and the oversteering characteristics you mentioned earlier will take effect without use of the steering wheel.

Oh and by the way CyberNerd, that is not true. Left-foot braking is used usually in rally or kart racing.And by the way, drivers who do use it do not use the technique for "keeping the throttle in the optimal rev range", they use it to reduce the time between the throttle and braking, reducing trail-braking oversteer, and/or car load maneuvers. Please check your facts before posting them...


You just contradicted yourself and answered your own question. Track drivers (myself included) use left-foot braking all the time. While the time it saves is minimal, over the course of a full track it can take tenths, even seconds off the lap.

There is also Heel-Toe Braking


Just in case people misread, (I know Viper knows what he means), but Heel-Toe braking has less to do with the actual brakes themselves, and more to do with the revs matching to cause minimal engine-braking.

Tune your car so it has a lower center of gravity, with plenty of downforce


Dont forget that having too much downforce is jut as bad as having too little. Too much on a less powerful car will just create masses of understeer. Too little on a powerful car will mean masses of oversteer, followed usually by a short flight. :mrgreen:
*sig removed for being too big. limitations are 550x120px & 50kb*
User avatar
Grez~Supra_RZ-S
Valued Member
Valued Member
 
Posts: 3092
Joined: 02 Dec 2003, 21:46
Location: Hair Salon

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby RobinZ on 30 Nov 2007, 05:01

well keep the downforce balanced (if you can), with some on the front obviously. it depends on where you place it. too much on the front=oversteer, and vice versa.
Image
User avatar
RobinZ
Turbo Charged
Turbo Charged
 
Posts: 180
Joined: 24 Dec 2005, 04:18
Location: USA

Re: Performance Tuning Tips

Postby CyberNerd952 on 03 Dec 2007, 15:34

RobinZ wrote:


P.S. Oh and by the way CyberNerd, that is not true. Left-foot braking is used usually in rally or kart racing. Most drivers use their left foot for their clutch and do not use this as it will cause some overlap between the throttle and brakes, which causes extra wear on the transmission and brakes. Most non-rally drivers never use this type of braking, and can cause lapses of uncontrollable driving. And by the way, drivers who do use it do not use the technique for "keeping the throttle in the optimal rev range", they use it to reduce the time between the throttle and braking, reducing trail-braking oversteer, and/or car load maneuvers. Please check your facts before posting them...


Alright mate, calm down. We're meant to be a team on here and I think that you need to get some real life track experience before having a go at other people about their facts. What about F1 drivers, they don't have a clutch!!! Whats with the critisism.
CyberNerd952
Stock
Stock
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 26 Nov 2007, 14:32

PreviousNext

Return to The Garage

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron